[labnetwork] Cleanroom dB levels

[Owain Clark]

I would go for the same approach, if a user requested headphones to deal with an issue such as tinnitus it would trigger an individual assessment as normal for any reasonable adjustment request.

Elsewise if users suggest they should be free to listen to music from headphones or a laptop etc, beyond the argument of safety and awareness I ask them if they think an industrial fab would allow such a request. While we are more flexible in many ways, I feel a professional environment is still important to maintain good working practices etc. Music can be listened to at an office desk.

BR, Owain

From: labnetwork <labnetwork-bounces at mtl.mit.edu> On Behalf Of Eric Johnston
Sent: 16 June 2025 14:28
To: Kevin Owen <kowen at andrew.cmu.edu>
Cc: labnetwork at mtl.mit.edu
Subject: Re: [labnetwork] Cleanroom dB levels

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At Penn, we have a hard stop on any type of earbuds, including the bone conduction type, mainly because of their ability to distract us from the surroundings in a way that other sources of sound do not. In particular, podcasts, music, or similar.  Now, the wearer may be listening to white or pink noise, which would theoretically be fine, but trying to tune our policy to allow for such exceptions would be unworkable in my opinion.

On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 7:40 PM Kevin Owen <kowen at andrew.cmu.edu<mailto:kowen at andrew.cmu.edu>> wrote:
Everything's a slippery slope... Bone conduction headphones definitely allow you to hear your surroundings well while still listening to music (I own a pair and can confirm), but you'd probably need to turn the volume insanely high to hear over the cleanroom background noise. Also that volume makes your whole face buzz... Standard foam earplugs are great for dampening all sounds, but that also includes people yelling from the next bay. My personal preference when I'm working with users is noise cancelling earbuds with no music; I can actually hear voices better with standard noise cancelling than with just passive noise suppression, or without anything and having to hear them over the screaming pumps. I also recently got a pair of Loop Engage<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.loopearplugs.com/products/engage-plus__;!!IBzWLUs!XSK8LU3IN_UrrvXnbajJ9Gc8ObOjhkfXRJQ4tTx2auegKngrzdYC2TzkcURN5OGb2W-KtqGPj03wssfIMZ51ldw$> earplugs and they work very well in the cleanroom (even with the mutes in). Not exactly something to "stock" in your gown room, but you could recommend it to users looking for ear protection. And I don't care what OSHA says, 70 dB is insanely loud. Even an hour bare-ears is enough to aggravate my tinnitus for the rest of the day and likely trigger a migraine. At the end of the day, it's just another example of that not-so-common thing they call "common sense".

-Kevin

On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 6:43 PM Kyle Keenan <kckeenan at seas.upenn.edu<mailto:kckeenan at seas.upenn.edu>> wrote:
Hi Justin,

In my opinion, this is a slippery slope. I would imagine that even bone conduction earphones could be turned up loud enough in a 70 dB ambient noise environment that you would not hear someone yelling for help in a neighboring area of the lab. I could also envision a situation where someone handling chemicals is startled by another person because they did not hear them coming. If you allow this kind of thing, you know there will be those who will misunderstand, or pretend they misunderstand, and will use traditional earbuds which may be noise-cancelling. To me, it's not worth the risk and the liability. If you want to have a meeting or listen to music, I think you should leave the lab.

One guy's two cents.

Best,
Kyle

On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 10:29 AM Justin C Wirth <jcwirth at purdue.edu<mailto:jcwirth at purdue.edu>> wrote:
This is a bit of a tangent, but on the earbud/headphone issue, I’ve started informally recommending to our users and staff that if they want to listen to music or have meetings in the cleanroom, to use bone conduction headphones such as these: https://shokz.com/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://shokz.com/__;!!IBzWLUs!TWIS8GmaRycewEN10kU1_IWlhfxRRwYioQjNeWKvV7Lm2rCyokkt5Mh8ENU_QnA_ly0AVFIsKJMfm5t1t72d3b4$> (there are also cheaper knock-offs/off-brands on Amazon).

They don’t go in your ears at all, they sit on your temple and transmit sound through that way. This keeps your ear canals open to hear ambient sounds like alarms and anyone yelling for help, but also lets you listen to a Zoom/Teams meeting or music or whatever. These ARE NOT noise cancelling so won’t help reduce the sound of the cleanroom itself, but have worked as a very good compromise between the desire to be able to listen to something in the cleanroom but also still be able to be alert to sounds in the lab.

Thanks,
Justin

Justin C. Wirth, PhD
Senior Research Engineer – EBL Processes & Nanofab Process Consultation
Birck Nanotechnology Center | Room 2287A
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From: labnetwork <labnetwork-bounces at mtl.mit.edu<mailto:labnetwork-bounces at mtl.mit.edu>> On Behalf Of Kyle Keenan
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2025 2:55 PM
To: Massey, Travis <massey21 at llnl.gov<mailto:massey21 at llnl.gov>>
Cc: labnetwork at mtl.mit.edu<mailto:labnetwork at mtl.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [labnetwork] Cleanroom dB levels

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For what it's worth, we tell people no earbuds whatsoever, with the two main arguments being that you might not hear a tool alarm or, worse, someone yelling for help in another bay.

Our lab also has ambient noise levels of 70-75 dB.

Kyle

On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 2:43 PM Massey, Travis <massey21 at llnl.gov<mailto:massey21 at llnl.gov>> wrote:
We found the same thing in a very similar setup and identical ES&H guidance.  Typically, we see 70-75 dB in the absence of personnel.  The chase is closer to 75 dBa, and the bays are closer to 70 dBa.  There were a few addressable offenders, like a loud spot where disrupted airflow created significant turbulence, increasing sound levels to 75 dBa in the cleanroom, but this was easily resolved by removing the obstruction.  Because none of these exceed the 85 dBA for 8h limit, ES&H will not get involved.

Users concerned about sound levels were tentative about hearing protection.  What they actually wanted in raising the concern was (a) to address the handful of loud spots, and (b) approval to use their noise cancelling earbuds in the cleanroom.  To the latter, we’re in a trial period – if it doesn’t impact our ability to get someone’s attention and talk with them when needed (e.g., can switch into transparency mode for a conversation), then neither I nor ES&H mind terribly if they wear their earbuds.  Quality of life counts for something.  We only cautioned that if they play music, they set volume limits to not damage their hearing.

From: labnetwork <labnetwork-bounces at mtl.mit.edu<mailto:labnetwork-bounces at mtl.mit.edu>> On Behalf Of N Shane Patrick
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2025 5:41 PM
To: Joseph Losby <joseph.losby at ucalgary.ca<mailto:joseph.losby at ucalgary.ca>>
Cc: labnetwork at mtl.mit.edu<mailto:labnetwork at mtl.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [labnetwork] Cleanroom dB levels

Our facility is bay and chase, no subfab, so all the pumps and chillers and all are right next door to the equipment. After a recent request by one of our staff members, I did an informal survey using NIOSH’s Sound Level Monitor app (NIOSH SLM) and an uncalibrated microphone. The only time I got above 80db was when people were talking or dropped things, even in our loudest chases.

Sustained levels at 85 or more are the levels of concern for hearing loss according to US agencies. Our EHS team agreed with me that even with an uncalibrated system we were very unlikely to reach sustained levels of concern. People are still welcome to use hearing protection for their own comfort, of course, and I’d likely provide it for my staff if asked, but it takes a lot to get to that sustained 85db point.

Now, 80db acoustics and the associated mechanical vibrations from all of that is certainly enough to mess with sensitive instruments, and we have had to relocate certain tools or just accept our environmental noise translates to measurement noise. That’s more a matter of design and space limitations for us than anything else.

-N. Shane Patrick
Manager, Lab Operations and Safety
Washington Nanofabrication Facility


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On Mar 18, 2025, at 5:26 PM, Joseph Losby <joseph.losby at ucalgary.ca<mailto:joseph.losby at ucalgary.ca>> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Have any of you taken acoustic noise measurements of your cleanroom facilities, or have a basis of design for acceptable levels?

If you can share your facility ACH with noise level ( dB ) that would be great.  Any other input will be much appreciated as well.

Cheers,
Joe



Joseph Losby, PhD

Manager, qLab Operations

joseph.losby at ucalgary.ca<mailto:joseph.losby at ucalgary.ca>


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--
Kyle Keenan

Senior Manager - Laboratory Operations
Quattrone Nanofabrication Facility
University of Pennsylvania
P: 215-898-7560
F: 215-573-4925


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Kyle Keenan

Senior Manager - Laboratory Operations
Quattrone Nanofabrication Facility
University of Pennsylvania
P: 215-898-7560
F: 215-573-4925

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